Thread: Totaled CTSW

I saw this post on the Sport Pilot forum

http://www.sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=274

Yikes! Not good. Two observations:

1 - the airplane is totaled. This does not speak well for the longevity of the airframe or, just as importantly, our insurance rates.

2 - Aircraft is reported as a "small tail" and "30-40" deg flaps were reportedly used. There has been discussion that 40 deg flaps is tricky to land. In addition, the 2006 model has larger tailfeathers, which supposedly give it more control at low speeds.

It will be educational to read the NTSB report (database with preliminary data is current through 9/5), but my take aways are to not use flaps 40 and fly a 2006 model.

Doug

Doug,

The 40 degree flaps are useful, just make sure you have practiced it before you need it.

The 05's landed pretty well, this sounds as though these partners were too in-experienced to ever be turned loose in the CT.

They did damage it repeatedly and keep on doing the same thing.

Hi Guys,

I'm so sorry to hear about anyone who has an accident. I've been there and it is the worst feeling in the world to see your plane damaged.

This situation is exactlly why I would recommend the King Video DVD on "Takeoffs and Landings". The $49 for the DVD is cheap insurance plus 5% off Avemco insurance. Until you really know the plane well I would suggest a small amount of power all the way to the ground. This technique is recommended for all normal landings reguardless of what someone might tell you. It makes round outs easier and gives your controls a little more authority, while letting you slowly settle to the ground. Using some power with flaps will also help you settle to the ground more slowly instead of dropping, especially if you are too high and will help keep you from dropping, so long as you stay above stall. If you land right at stall then you have given up control because you might not be able to correct for any mistakes at that moment. I know some will say "then don't make any mistakes", but that's not reallity. You can certainly do power off landings and stall landings, but you have to be on the money everytime or risk the damages to your airplane. Risk verses benefit is not worth the gamble. I don't like stall landings because if you read the wind wrong, if it changes or you are not making your best landing then things get bent or broken. Remember that the plane is still flying until it comes to a stop and you need to be able to control the plane, but with the stick all the way back you can't really fly/control it if things get ugly on the ground. I don't ever have the stick all the way back on touch down, because you just gave up control of your aircraft with full back stick if something changes, like the wind. Don't try to land to slow for a while. Make your touchdowns above stall because if you are too high or screw up the round out you will dump it down hard. You should be coming in and landing only on the mains and never on a nose wheel and it should not be a three point landing either or you may lose control or break the nosewheel. Nose wheels were not meant for landings as the main source for shock absorbtion. All of this can be found in books and videos. This is not a new concept, but flying 101. Some CFI's choose to teach the way they like to fly and not the way you need to learn. It was a CFI from a heavy type aircraft that got me in trouble once. I didn't listen to my little innerself and let him lead me down the primrose path. Never again. A CFI may have hundreds or thousands of hours and you don't. Plus lots of CFI's make mistakes and bend planes. Being in a light plane is different than landing a heavier aircraft and it slows down faster and drops out of flight where lots of heavy aircraft have some stored energy and a light aircraft does not.
Always pick a spot on the runway and don't just pick all 5k feet of it, because when things go bad you need to be able to hit a spot reguardless of what landing configuration your in.
From what I have read from many people is that they tend to roundout too high. We all need to make sure we level out with the ground so we are 1' or less, 2' can work if you are carring some speed. Practicing your site picture in the cockpit will help. Practice like you play and I hope we all will have a safe flight.

I flew this morning and did nothing, but takeoffs and landings in every configuration there is including no power dead sticks. You need to be able to do it all, but do it in baby steps and safely.

We all make mistakes at some point, but you need to leave yourself a way out and being right on the edge leaves no way out.

I'm sorry if this was lenghtly and I seemed to be on a soap box, but I hope to never see another accident on landings and takeoffs where someone gets hurt or loses their plane. Truly heartbreaking.

Takeoffs, landings and weather account for the largest majority of accidents and fatalities.

You all stay safe and have a good flight!

Hello,

My instructor has me performing no-power landings, so your mentioning power-off lanings in very important to me.

For power-on landing, please describe in detail so that I can print and show this to my instructor.

Any and all advise is most welcome !!!!!

ctsw

Hi,

Watch any new video class or look at CT's web site, they now have a picture of a pattern with altitudes and speeds. They would like people to approach at 55-65 knots. Why on earth would you take a new or low time pilot and hang him/her on the edge when they are just learning. You know you may not have the fine motor movement or be able to judge height off the ground well. When your on the edge, on anything, everything has to go just right all the time. Raise your hand if everything always goes as planned and you never make a mistake. I can't raise my hand. If people were honest they couldn't raise their hand either. The Ct lands very well at 55 knots and this should keep someone out of trouble from a stalled hard landing. Don't force it let it settle. If you don't like the way a CFI teaches then tell them so. It's your money and plane or find a new CFI. Tell them I'm more comfortable with a little power for a while until I make all good landings then start cutting power and changing configurations. Why give someone a lot of things to do at the bottom of a landing when you can limit the issues, especially if it isn't a perfect landing. It's simply playing the odds which I prefer to be in my favor. Please for your own sanity from all the the different opinons get on the "King School " website and get the Takeoffs and Landing CD. It will explain things much better than I can and show you proven and accepted methods from Flight schools, books and even the insurance industry. I use these principles and don't have any problems. The best advise I could give you is to learn to fly the plane to the ground. Level off and get as close as possible like 1 ft. or less. You will not have any more hard landings.

Just my .02 cents

I am always very sorry to hear mishaps like this. Luckily nobody got injured.
One phrase did catch my attention:

"We have had ours for 42 hours and bent two axle supports and the nose wheel half twice on four seperate occasions"

When making a substantial investment in a plane like the CT, why not make sure you have proper training on this.

Really CT's are not difficult to land, even with full flaps, although admittedly you need to fly your speeds more accurately.

Nothing replaces training, and YES the CT is an advanced plane and in my estimation should be flown by people with lots of experience on ultralights and preferably a private pilots licence.

Too bad to find this out the hard way.

Jos,

I read today that the owner will be in the hospital for a while. I think they are giving the CT a bad rap due to inadequate training.

One issue I agree with and that is there was no opportunity to land the CT on the demo ride and it is advertised as "easy" to fly. These guys needed an easy to land LSA and could have bought one but the process is misleading.

http://www.sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=274

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

Watch any new video class or look at CT's web site, they now have a picture of a pattern with altitudes and speeds. They would like people to approach at 55-65 knots.

Just looked at their diagram. They also recommend flaps 15 for normal runways. Why is that?

I have most of my time in the T-211, and I rarely use flaps 20 when it's windy - it's just to easy to get pushed around. We tend to use 62 kt for threshold speed.

I almost learned the hard way that finesse is not what you need when it's gusty. I was about 5 hours from my checkride and practicing landings on a nice windy north Texas day (10G16, 20 deg crosswind). I was focusing on getting the plane down softly from the flare when a nice gust came along and floated us up and to the right. My instructor swore some things I'd never have expected out of her and just then, the gust abated and I managed to pull a firm but not hard landing out of it, on the edge of but on the runway. She scolded me: "Why are you waiting for the airplane to get pushed around by a gust? Get it on the ground!"

Hi Doug,

Fd recommends either no flaps or 15 degree and no flaps in crosswinds. Using flaps in crosswinds is a good way to get a wing high in and scrape the ground or get lifted back in the air or pushed off the runway
someday. If you search the web there are huge articles about wether to use flaps or not, reguardless of who's plane you are flying. Many articles argue the use of flaps for normal landings ever. I'm not advocating never using them, but I believe there is a time and a place. In that statement time in aircraft figures into the equation. When I first land a new plane I choose not to use flaps and it helps maintain a more even decent and round out at the bottom. Less chance at the bottom for too much sink and a possible over correction for the first few flights. Learning to land is better off in the long run taken in steps and not thrown at you with more advanced landings or possible multible correctiopns at the bottom. CFI's whith all their experience tend to set us up for just these type of situations. Learning in steps tends to cause less headaches while learning and decreases the chance for a bent gear. There are plenty of landings ahead where you can change your landing configurations. I think finesse is what you always need. If the CFI you mention wanted you to hurry and force your plane down in a crosswind because she was out of her comfort zone then she was dead wrong. When gust happen then that is the time to exercise good judgement and add power and relevel the craft, but most likely exercise good judgement and go around. There is absolutely no shame in a go around and it shows you are an accomplished pilot and know how to fly safely. Tha's a smart pilot. Bad judgement cause almost all accidents.
I the CD for King Flight schools that I have been pushing it explains in detail how to set up and execute good crosswind landings. I have found few people who really know how to crosswind land correctly. It makes a hugh difference on side loads and drifting. If you use the proper technique then you won't ever worry about crosswinds again.

Get the King CD,