Thread: Finally starting to get this landing thing down

roger,

you make me think.

i'm not in disagreement but think i can clarify a little. you describe power on landings as having a slower sink rate.

how about this thinking, in a power on landing you can achieve your landing attitude and maintain it as energy decays and you settle on your mains. perhaps close to using the pitch attitude that is the end of your round out as your landing attitude. maintaining a constant pitch attitude in the final phase of your landing looks very stable.

in a power off landing you can manage your sink rate every bit as good as with power on perhaps even better because your can more easily reduce your sink rate continually as you approach contact. the big difference is that to allow your excess speed to decay and manage your sink rate in the power off version you might be more likely to incrementally and continually increase your pitch attitude. the perfect result is full stall and contact and sink rate of near zero all being realized at the same point in time.

they are different beasts and practically every landing is a blend of the two approaches to some degree.

it is worth pointing out that if your approaches are steep and your throttle is closed the engine out procedure is to do a normal landing albeit with some extra care not to balloon.

if your approaches are flat and your throttle is open the engine out procedure is to change to the above method before it is too late and then do a more demanding type of landing. if you are too late your procedure to to find another field or come up short.

Hi Ed,

My approaches and landings are the same with power or without. I keep the same pattern and speeds. The 2700 rpm doesn't really change that at all, it just makes a little difference at the round out and touch. It's just when I round out I have a little bit of throttle and a slightly higher nose. It just seems to make the touch a little softer with a higher percentage.
I don't think either is right or wrong just different. I feel some may have it a little easier when first learning the CT during landings. Both are good to know and to know when to use them.

P.S.
I don't know who learns more from our talks? You and me or everyone else. LOL

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...I keep the same pattern and speeds. The 2700 rpm doesn't really change that at all

so far i agree

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

... it just makes a little difference at the round out and touch. ...

the big difference is in glide slope and resulting pitch attitude and greater/lesser need to round out.

test it same configuration, same ias, 2700 rpms vs idle are your vertical speeds the same?

Hi Ed,


I sure hope that no one from this forum ever thinks we are arguing. Just fun debate everyone.

Yes the vertical speeds are very close because 2700rpm doesn't really help that much in the approach. I usually set it as I turn final and don't bother with it again until I touch. Once set then I control everything else with stick and rudder. I think my approach vertical speed is around 400fps. It can vary depending on winds and if I set myself up to high or low, but I usually have that done by the time I turn onto base and if I really screw up I will lose the extra altitude early in the base or as I turn final so I don't have to mess with it at the very end.
I have adopted a new rule with myself to try and hit as close to the numbers at all airports. It keeps my skill level up in case I need an accurate landing in a short space in and engine out and it makes my runway exits easier as sometimes I have more options turning off without riding my brakes.
"And of course the big reason is if it is a long runway I can count all three bounces as landings in my logbook." LOL

climb performance is nearly always the first beneficiary of more power. i don't see how you can have it both ways, 2,700 isn't a meaningful amount of power when it comes to descent angle yet it is meaningful when it comes to contact and making approaches simpler. in fact in this thread you said the power on approach reduces sink rate.

i find 2,700 to be a good setting to initiate my approach when abeam the numbers as soon as i sense that i am intersecting glide slope to the numbers i pull back to idle so i know the difference between the 2 settings. i find the difference to be meaningful and it is one of the primary adjustments that i make to change my initial target which is well down the runway to the numbers.

if your speed and power are constant you have to rely more heavily on distance to hit the numbers.

Hi Ed,

The 2700 isn't meaningful during my approach because of my descent and always going down more or less. The 2700-2800 plays in only when I round out and more or less level off. This is when it helps. I don't really notice any change between approaches at 2700 and no throttle while losing altitude to the numbers. I set my approach speed at 60 knots and hold it there no matter what the rpm. I'm really starting to like 3000rpm when loaded heavy, at zero flaps and crosswinds. I can definitely feel and see a difference when I level off for touchdown.
I go out sometimes and just try all kinds of settings with flaps and rpm. These are the ones I have found to be consistent and work well for me.

zero flaps and/or crosswinds: 3000rpm 60 knots approach (3000rpm when really heavy and high density altitude)
15,30,40 flaps: 2700-2800rpm
15: 50-60 knot approach
30-40: 50 knot approach


When I came up to Oregon I was still landing too often at no throttle and when I got back I really started to experiment. The no throttle made my landings to inconsistent for me. The rep. from FD in Germany made me sit up and take notice when he said we should all be landing with power as stated in the FD flight manual. So I started to play and it made a world of difference.

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...The 2700 isn't meaningful during my approach because of my descent and always going down more or less. ...

roger,

i'll give you the last word on this but i think you need one more try to improve upon the above quote.

my final thought is this:

assuming you are not advocating slipping, once you are done turning and have your throttle set to 2,700 all the way through contact, and are also maintaing a consistant approach speed you have no way to adjust your point where your glide slope intersects the runway.

in order to stay on glide slope at a given speed pitch and power adjustments are required. with your constant power setting you are left with only pitch adjustments to maintain speed and your glide slope changes with each adjustment.

i have a 2nd problem with your formula and that is the mindset it creates. if a pilot sets power and rides it in at a predetermined approach speed without throttle changes i think it makes the pilot less proned to soften contact with throttle and or pitch attitude increases ( or even maintaining the final pitch attitude as you work the stick back to decay speed. )

this, just hold the stick steady and keep the power where it is mindset leads to hard contacts because continual adjustments are'nt happening and when you need to react at the very last phase of the landing you are less likely to do so.

in fixed wing, powered aviation pitch and power adjustments generally happen together in order to maintain speed and vertical navigation profile. when you reduce the adjustment to pitch only and keep power at a predetermined setting your are reduing your control from both speed and glide slope to speed alone.

Hi Ed,


Neither one of us gets a last word, we just view landings differently and that's ok, because there is more than one way to skin the cat. I'm cool with any bodies landings because they are the pilot.
I just hope our debates help others out in the field work out some of their frustrations with landings.

Don't take me too literally. I do have to make some approach changes and as you get better you tend to need less adjustment on the base and final. My biggest hangup was making approaches too high. I finally got that fixed. You should however be already set up at the very short final to leave things alone. I do make some pitch corrections at the bottom, but I don't make any more just before I touch. Too many people try to soften the touch down or influence it by milking the stick, then bouncing and flaring occur. I'm not literally saying you don't physically move the stick, but it should, by the time you level off be ever so tiny and that keeps the landings soft, keeps the over flaring out and no bouncing. Since I have changed my landing techniques to these ideas I have not bounced, flared back into the air or landed hard once. Once I get rounded out and more or less level I leave things alone and it just settles all by itself.
You only need to make changes when something was done wrong or you missed something that you were striving for.

If you are set up to hit let's say the numbers and you aren't on a good glide path maybe you do need to play with throttle and pitch. I certainly do once in a while. I have been practicing setting up on final to make sure that by at least the short final I do not have to make any corrections and I should hit my target, so my glide slope doesn't change after I'm on short final. I have been going out and shooting a dozen landings per hour when I practice.
If you are on your glide slope why do you need to make any changes if in fact you are on an accurate glide slope?
Once power setting (on or off) are set, your approach setup, glide path and target are all set why do you need to make changes, unless something wasn't right to start with? Hopefully these changes or settings were all done by short final.

I don't think a pilot should have to soften his landing by adding back power if he is making a good landing anyway. You should only have to add power back if you didn't do something just right and you need to make a correction. Then you are not landing power off, but just adding it late in the game and trying to make it just right. I put mine in and never have to worry about again, of course unless I messed something up, too. I will add power or change pitch if I make a bad setup, but if the landing is done right why do you need to use any power at the bottom of a no power landing or change power, on a power on landing? You only need to make adjustment when something you did throws off the good landing. Of course we all need to make corrections at times and we are talking about very good approaches and landings that no one can do 100% of the time.

We are only talking about making a higher percentage of our landings perfect.

i did offer you the last word, maybe you should have taken it cause it's not in my nature to say or do nice things very frequently.

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...If you are on your glide slope why do you need to make any changes if in fact you are on an accurate glide slope?
Once power setting (on or off) are set, your approach setup, glide path and target are all set why do you need to make changes, unless something wasn't right to start with? Hopefully these changes or settings were all done by short final. ...

all summer there have been countless turkey vultures, white pelicans, ravens and various other soaring birds at the approach end of the active runway here. they are here because of the great thermals, 1,000'/min lift on short final with soaring birds orbiting is typical. my feet and hands can get so active that it becomes a cardiovascular workout. this is a normal summer day when landings are easy. a couple of questions that i have been asked by passengers this summer on final approach are; 1) "we are trying to land, why are we going up?"
2) "how can you land when your wing is pointed strait down? ( 90 degree bank )

i bring this up because the answer to your question is "conditions" another related answer would be incorrect judgement early in the approach.

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...I don't think a pilot should have to soften his landing by adding back power if he is making a good landing anyway...

i agree don't get me wrong, the thing is hard landings so often come from not being ready to add power if the landing left you in a poor energy state and more than a couple of feet from the runway. being ready to add power is important in any design, to me in the ct it is even more important.

Hi Ed,

You have a great nature about you. Your a nice guy just look in the mirror. LOL
I love our talks, but sometimes worry what others may think, since they may not be able to tell what tone we are using or if we are friends or enemies by just these writings.

Conditions always change things, but I'm trying to relate to only normal non complicated landings.

Your conditions at your airfield and the type of flying required is why I tell some people not to compare to you only because your circumstances are so different from the others. Your type of flying is certainly out of the norm which has made you a good pilot and at the same time caused you to look at approaches and landings differently because they are so demanding.