Thread: why 30 degrees and gusts don't work well

summer time high altitude landings are an issue again. density altitudes are 10,000' by 8:30 AM and thermals and gusty crosswinds are the norm. wind directions varying as much as 270 degrees are normal as well.

i've come to the conclusion that often you cannot fly a stabilized approach on a summer day, for me this is unique to the ctsw. spam cans are far more stable and even my 350lb challenger with all it's drag was far more stable on approach. the ctsw has good rudder and aileron authority and the centerline and alignment are easy enough to hold. glide slope is a different story and the approach can be a bit roller coaster like.

i found a catch 22 trying to land yesterday. the problem stems from my pitot-static system, i approached with my steam gauge reading 51kts and my efis reading 60kts. 30 degrees and when i try to round out in ground effect i am repelled as though it is a force field and balloon up 5'. as usual when i balloon a bit i hold my pitch attitude and add a bit of power to soften the now more rapid sink rate. gusts are now happening frequently and when the gust combines with the extra power i go up instead of settling, pull the power and the gust ends and the sink rate is excessive. i went full power once and got high enough to put my nose back down but got the same result when i tried to round out. i used all 7,000' of runway. next i did a circuit and greased the landing at 15 degree flap setting. the lesson for me is that a gusty high density altitude day can add and subtract lift to a point where i cannot counter it with the throttle. the danger comes from oscillating between 0 and 8' of altitude in a poor energy state. you can't put the nose down because it will subtract lift and risk the nose wheel. you can't regain a good energy state with the throttle due to all the drag at 30 degrees.

once you balloon on a gusty day, and are now at least several feet above the runway, if gusty the landing is far more difficult to complete than if you managed to keep close to the runway while getting slow.

Hi Ed,

This time of year as you said you may float in ground effect more as the heat comes up off the asphalt. Getting in trouble or using all the runway playing with the throttle can happen more often. I still contend and I use now 2700 rpm all the way down to touchdown. I use up a little more runway than in the winter months, but I don't use up lots of it by ballooning or trying to stabilize the landing. I keep better rudder control, use a little more runway than normal and have better control in winds and "less likely" to get in a stall or bad drop the plane type situation. My final touchdown then becomes shorter.
I just fly it as close to the runway as possible, hold it steady and let the plane settle. If you don't move the stick you won't bounce or balloon. Some people bounce because their sink rate is too fast. The 2700 rpm keeps that from happening. You have to have moved the stick back either consciously or unconsciously to get back up in the air.
I know you try to pull the stick all the way back for a full stall landing and if you are slightly still above flying speed or the ground effect mixed with runway heat helps you out at the last moment then you are back in the air. If you hold the stick still you should stay on the ground. When I touchdown I give the stick about a 1/2" forward push and that makes sure I stay on the ground.

Since the Fly-In I have changed the way I land and it is far more consistent. A lot of the CFI's I have talked to over the last year like to teach power off landings, but FD said they want you to land power on. They must have a reason.

Roger,

I finally stopped flying all over the place and started practicing and experimenting with my landings. I was taught my Tom to use NO POWER which is good training if that ever occurs BUT I've finally listed to you and now use 2600 RMP - my landings have improved and it works as your explination above. In other words YOU'RE RIGHT - at least for me anyhow!!

Many thanks

Roger H

rogers,

FD's reason to use power on landings is the same as yours, round out is easier, touch down is easier, everything is more stabilized/normalized and max sink rate is reduced.

tom fly's out of alturas which has short runways and max performance take off and landings are called for.

i fly out of the high sierra and the same landing configuration every time would have me doing a lot of go-arounds or flying wide low appproaches.

probably most of us allow our home fields to influence our techniques.

roger lee, it isn't that i don't understand what you mean but i do have a little issue with the way you say it. my concern is that if our rhetoric says not to move the throttle ( keep at 2,700 ) and to keep the stick still (because pulling it back may result in more lift than you are looking for) than it sounds like telling ct pilots to accept the contact they get in that configuration. a lot of hard landings come from the pilot's failure to react even though he recognizes the imminent hard contact.

i contend that to save your gear you have to actively accept the contact or soften it. this is an important decision point especially when flying an aircraft with lightweight gear and a tendency to sink rapidly at times.

so sure, look good with shallow power on landings, i do it all the time. that is how you show off for a passenger who doesn't know much about flying. you might impress me more with a steep approach leading to a short field landing. the average passenger might not like it as much and might think the pilot that did the greaser is the better pilot but which is harder to do? which is more useful in an emergency?

there are a lot of ways to land a ct, slip it in, drag it in, power on, fly it on, full stall, one wheel, roll out with nose wheel up, dead stick, dead stick from engine out approach, soft field, dry lake bed, beach sand. the more variety you have the better.

Hi Ed,

I don't mean to say that power off landings don't have their place, they do, especially in an emergency. We are talking about the normal everyday landings. Not short field or dead stick. Learning all ways is a must, but for the everyday landings I don't want to hurt my gear and then my consistency is the norm.
I didn't mean to imply about never needing to move the stick after you round out, but I have noticed that the majority of people, my self include, pumps the stick ever so slightly or pull it back farther when the wheels touchdown. As soon as I got away from this unconscious habit and left my power alone then my landings were not only better in the calm wind conditions, but absolutely better in crosswinds. I had more control and if something was off a little then I wasn't hanging it all on the line at once.
If you round off at the correct height and speed off the runway then you should not drop, but settle. If you are too high then yes you may need to worry. So practicing a round out closer to the runway would be the better everyday practice and then add a slower settle at 2700 rpm and bingo.


If you need short field type landings or takeoffs then yes you might need to change your approach, but most of us aren't on really short runways.

Assuming for the sake of argument we have a 15mph gust hitting us from over there on the right somewhere ...

2700 rpm and zero degrees flaps - higher speed and lower angle of attack - gust has less relative affect

idle and 30 degrees flaps - lower speed and higher angle of attack - gust has higher relative affect

I would agree with the 2700 too!

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

... We are talking about the normal everyday landings....

the thread is about a gusty condition where 30 degree flaps didn't make sense

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

... If you round off at the correct height and speed off the runway then you should not drop, but settle. If you are too high then yes you may need to worry. So practicing a round out closer to the runway ...

perhaps i don't need a basic landing lesson roger

i was trying to talk about a limitation that i am realizing. gusty conditions can with 30 degrees work fine most of the time. like recognizing and imminent stall it is good to recognize what it is like to spend too much time with marginal control due to gusts getting you in a poor energy state. yesterday i reacted to gusts for an extended period of time and got a better understanding of how the landing incidents occur.

there is a point where pilot induced oscillation becomes far easier to realize than in any other portion of the flight envelope that i have experienced so far. i rode out these conditions for 7,000' and am better acquainted with the slow flight characteristics of my ct in gusty conditions than if i would have just went around. if the gusts are frequent, strong and variable enough my ability to control the addition and subtraction of lift with the throttle becomes reduced, this is the point where pilot induced oscillation can lead to an incident and it is good to know so it can be avoided. it is good to experience a little taste of so you can know how much is too much.

to put it briefly the lesson i learned was to keep a good margin from stall until i'm stable inches above the runway, then its a good idea to chop power ( if power is in ) and retract flaps to kill unwanted lift. personally i tend to go for back pressure and keep my noses wheel light or high and brake with the stabilator till there is not enough speed.

the pitot-static system can be unreliable ( at least in my ct which can read slow and cause me to approach fast ) and so it is good to have a feel for rounding out with excess speed.

Originally Posted by BOMOD

Assuming for the sake of argument we have a 15mph gust hitting us from over there on the right somewhere ...

2700 rpm and zero degrees flaps - higher speed and lower angle of attack - gust has less relative affect

idle and 30 degrees flaps - lower speed and higher angle of attack - gust has higher relative affect

I would agree with the 2700 too!

i use more speed and less flaps in gusty conditions and am not arguing against it. as i said to roger i was trying to discuss the limitations of 30 degrees when it isn't working well.

2700 is a fine number.

Hi All,

Just so everyone knows, Ed and I like to debate and there is no Ill will here. We are friends and we just have a different philosophy on landings as many of you do.

It's just fun debate and hopefully we all learn and try new things.

Can't we all just get get along, LOL.