Thread: Flaps: 40 degrees

Landing with 40 degrees seems to be a big issue. I would like to hear comments by the more experienced CT pilots.

I know there have been incidents from hard landings to bent gear to a totaled CT.

I also know that between the flaps and drooped ailerons 40 degrees is a lot of drag and this configuration can be quite useful.

What have you learned? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hi CT,

From my brief experience allow me to offer some humble observations.

In normal flight mode I have found that in anything other than strong wind, landings are always smoother and better controlled with just 15 degree flaps and with a trickle of power. If doing a glide approach 30 flaps may be better but one must be careful in the flare as the CT2K tends to hold off longer than the SW. 40 degree is really only for those times when you're wanting to just drop the a/c down quickly, ie short field work. For a normal landing a 40 flap setting will tend to pull you up quicker than expected and drop you onto the rwy, so it's advisable to be very alert and keep a bit of power on to overcome some of the drag. I should qualify these comments by adding that our plane is fitted with a 3 blade electric CS prop that has a pretty impressive braking effect when set fine and on final, so keeping power just on is almost essential.

Lots of practise in all configurations is a must and soon enough you'll master everything from fast in with negative flaps through to short field work. In the 217 hrs I've flown our plane (most of this touring) I've done 365 landings on a variety of surfaces and in all sorts of conditions and pleased to say only a few odd occasions, mostly early on, were they a little bumpy. Thankfully, getting landings right was something my instructor really drilled in to me.

It's in this area that I have a difference of opinion (that's just a polite way of saying how I really feel) with FD. They claim the reason our main gear strut snapped is due to heavy landings. I know, and am emphatic, that we have never done a "heavy" landing, certainly nothing heavy enough to cause this sort of failure. More likely something happened in its former life as a FD demo a/c. I know of one other CT of the same vintage as ours that had cracked legs. I'd be really interested to know more about the story surrounding the "totalled CT". It's interesting that FD now offers stronger gear than fitted to earlier models yet argue the original gear is right for the job.

Paul

ATL05CA136
On July 26, 2005, at 1400 eastern daylight time, a Flight Design CTSW, N84FS, registered to and operated by a private owner, collided with the ground and nosed over during a landing at Hawkins County Airport in Rogersville, Tennessee. The flight was operated under provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 instructional flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident and a flight plan was not filed. The airplane sustained substantial damage. The private pilot received no injuries and the flight instructor received minor injuries. The flight originated from Lonesome Pine Airport in Wise, Virginia on July 26, 2005 at 1330.

The flight was on a cross country trip to Rogersville, Tennessee. As the airplane approached Hawkins County Airport, the private pilot prepared for a normal landing on runway 25 with 040-degrees of flaps. According to the flight instructor, as the airplane flared, the private pilot added "a little bit of power to allow for a softer touchdown." The airplane yawed to the right and the flight instructor stated that the private pilot decided to go around and added full power, but the airplane continued to yaw and banked to the right. The flight instructor took control of the airplane, but stated that the flight controls were unresponsive. The flight instructor then elected to land on the grass to the right of the runway. During the landing roll on the grass, the airplane collided with a ditch. The nose gear collapsed and the airplane nosed over.

Post-accident examination of the airplane revealed that the airplane was inverted, nose gear collapsed and engine firewall was buckled. The propeller and engine cowling was damaged. The airplane also exhibited damage to the right and left wing, vertical stabilizer, and rudder. Post-accident examination of the flight control surfaces revealed that all flight controls revealed no mechanical failures. Neither pilot reported a mechanical problem with the airplane.

the post above is the ntsb report, here's my take, i'm a new ct pilot so take it for what it's worth.

I'm guessing that upon the airplane flaring (as the instructor puts it, i would say the pilot flared the plane) wind sheer from the right impacted the vertical stabilzer and yawed the plane right, the pilot advanced the throttle but failed to use adequate left rudder to counter the yaw to the right. Then as the CFI took the controls, 40 degrees, probably too nose up he interprets mushier controls as unresponsive and also fails to use adequate left rudder to conter the yaw to the right. Between the 2 of them someone maybe inputs a enough right aileron to add more roll right. The aircraft perhaps was too slow and angle of attack too high for the throttle to be effective enough.

I'm guessing that using 40 degrees on a normal landing shows some lack of experience with this design. I remember reading a post by the CFI, he was looking for a LSA for the PP to get retested in (anything but a CTSW) my take is that this CFI blamed his lack of proficiency in this design on the design.

Likewise, over here schools avoid training with CTs, esp ab initio. As you suggest, Charlie Tango, it comes down to lack of familiarity with the better performance characteristics of the CT as opposed to the more docile Skyfox Gazelle or Jabiru which are heavily favoured in Aust for training a/c. As I have said earlier, lots of practise. I trained in an Allegro which, now that I'm used to the CT, I find twitchy and less controllable.

Can you offer any further info on owners' experiences who have reported bent main gear legs?

Paul

The other story I know of goes like this. An expierienced pilot comes for his 3 hours of training and does well enough to be signed off. The CFI recommends that he build some time before using 40 degrees.

On the way home he makes a stop and tries 40 and lands hard and bends the gear. He calls in and tells the CFI that he was right.

I guess we all choose to learn the hard way at one time or another .

40 degrees shouldn't be used except for soft fields. Maybe shouldn't be needed at all.

Hi All,

I learned very quickly in my Kolb Mark III that with any landing they should all be flown to the ground within inches. It's really not hard if you practice like you play. I also found out that with 40 degree flaps that when you flare you better be only inches from the ground because the plane quits flying real fast and will drop out from under you. Learn to always fly your aircraft to the ground and no matter what you fly it will always be a good landing. I droped my Kolb when I first learned years ago and bent one side some. I was told by a CFI that was with me to just hold it off 3 ft. above the ground, but when it quit flying it fell out of the sky. The light aricraft like Kolb's and CT's, along with others, are so light that when you use 40 degrees of drag then it slows down fast and hopefully you are next to the ground. I feel so good with this type of practice and landings that I will turn my engine off on final and practice real dead sticks in all configurations. After you do this for a while being dead stick is just another day in the week. I also always pick a target to land on 100% of the time and make sure I hit it every time. If an engine ever goes I feel I can set it down almost anywhere and walk away. Fly it to the ground, practice like you play. Larger aircraft have more inertia and kenetic energy and they can be held off some and still get good penetration through the air.

I would recommend that when learning with 40 degree flaps, land with power for a while then do idle approaches. Might say you a teeth jaring landing if you forgot to fly it all the way down.