Thread: When you can't buy a good landing

Good landings come and go. As soon as I think I have the CTSW's landings mastered they start getting away from me.

Here's my question: When your good landings get illusive what should you do? What should be your focus?

Woodstock got sucked into that black hole known as the avionics shop for 3 weeks and came out with new issues and new screens to stare at and distract me. My 1st 2 landings were below my usual standard then I got a good one. Yesterday on approach I asked myself what should I do differently to break the cycle and the the answers were:

1) remember to look far down the runway
2) try to be sensitive to vertical speed when close to the runway
3) don't over react to a little bit of ballooning
4) ready for smooth small power adjustments
5) nail the speed, not too fast

We all know that gusty crosswinds are challenging but I also thing that near calm conditions can be tricky too. Sometimes light and variable winds at the surface report as calm and there can be a gradient making the sheer more of an issue on approach making my approach lack the stability that we all like.

Probably the best answer when not happy is more landings but I hate pattern work.

A guy from FDWest that has been to our local airport a couple of times now remarked that when departing Mammoth you might as well select the runway that points at your direction of flight because the windsocks just point at each other. Perhaps I live in a place that makes the CTSW a bit more challenging. You don't see any tail draggers based here except for one Citabria and the owners both have bigger tricycle geared airplanes.

Any other tips and how to get back landing skills?

Hi Ed,

Ok, remember you opened this door. LOL
This is part of the lunch deal, too.

Just try it 10 times and let me know how it works out. If I am wrong I'll buy you lunch.

Try this especially if you have variable winds which you seem to have a lot of.

1. Don't try to land too slow, 55 knots instead of 50 knots. The plane will settle here and not drop out from under you and you will still have good control surface authority for the variable winds.
2. use 0-15 degree flaps for all normal landings.
3. Keep a small amount of power in all the way to touchdown.
4. Do not flare (causes ballooning), let it settle and when you just start to touch hold the stick steady and let speed bleed. (don't pull the stick all the way back), this causes ballooning or lets the wind pick you back up into the air.
5. cut power, and slowly push the stick forward to settle the front wheel and give yourself directional control, since you should be down past flying speed by now. Keeping the stick forward will tend to keep the nose wheel planted on the ground while you slow to taxi and not let you wander as much because the wind gets under your wings. If I have a bad crosswind I tend to use more brakes to get down to walking speed quickly. (I don't mean I jam them on.)

Using more flaps means you always have to be exact on halting vertical speed and arresting the aircraft just above the runway, because airspeed drops very quick with 30-40 degree flaps. If it is not perfect every time them kerplunk, you go down for a hard landing. Lots of hard landings could take its toll eventually.
I think there is definitely a place for 30-40 degree flaps and you should be able to do those types of landings, but I think a steady diet of those for normal landings will cause a lot more bad verses smooth landings over the long run.

Roger Lee,

Good advice to be sure but perhaps more of a normal landing lesson than a "how to get it back" when you are in a bad spell.

Perhaps one reason 30 degrees feels like the right place for a normal landing to me is my home field is over 4,500' higher than yours which leads to much lower temperatures and still much higher density altitudes. That equates to more ground speed and less lift at the same IAS and flap setting. This brings up another issue and that would be go-arounds. You can develope close to 100hp combined with an amount of lift that the designers expected in normal operations where I can develop 70hp and less lift. This could mean that in the same type of botched landing and the same resulting pitch attitude and poor energy state your throttle might fix things and mine might not. When thinking about lift and available power consider that in Tucson at this moment you are 20% of service ceiling density altitude and I am 70% of service ceiling density altitude

Yesterday it was gusting to 16kts, 9,000' density altitude and 45 degrees Fahrenheit and I used 15 degrees and for those conditions I feel it was the best flap setting, I'll bet in Tucson with the same winds that I would have used zero.

Perhaps the extra ground speed combined with a lot less lift is a reason I try to get a little more aft stick and a little more nose up when I can.

Our European counterparts are often on rough / short fields with lower temperatures resulting in a need for lower ground speeds while experiencing higher ground speeds at a given IAS but producing similar lift to your location.

It is prudent to consider field type, field length, temperature and density altitude when determining flap settings for landings and take offs. On balance I use more flaps when the field is shorter and or rougher and when the temperature is lower and the density altitude is higher. So far in our discussions we have focused on winds alone to determine optimum flap settings.

When it comes to flying the approach in gusty conditions at high altitude the airplane will behave similarly at the same IAS but once you contact the ground with the extra ground speed you have more stored energy to deal with and less power braking and lift at your disposal.

High altitude take offs call for more flaps as well because of reduced climb performance and additional ground speed needed to get flying speed.

Didn't know you were married so I'll amend my date offer, perhaps a box of them for you and your wife if you meet us in Furnace creek for some golf / tennis / flying?

PS The scariest landings that I can remember were in my 180hp Skyhawk landing on 27 with gusty crosswinds out of 180 degrees. The landings were fine but the roll outs were a problem for me, it can be hard to hold the centerline and not head south when gusts are impacting the vertical stabilizer. Once I almost struck the prop on roll out, the gust gave a lot of positive lift to the horizontal stabilizer and I was pitched down, suddenly on my nose wheel with my mains going up and that was beyond my experience and my instinct to pull back wasn't there. This would be an example of a condition where thinking forward stick for directional stability would have been disastrous.

Some of the local thinking is that there is a vulnerable period in volatile conditions, when control surface authority is minimal and the best timing for this condition is at contact more so than on rollout. Ultimately the timing is up to the gusts and therefore you always want to be able to go around if it isn't working out.

I live at a ski area and it is common when a visitor is skiing with locals at a destination resort for the home boys to demonstrate how well they can ski their own hill with its unique challenges. I have done it and experienced having it done to me. I wonder if the same doesn't apply to flying / landing?

CYA

Hey Ed,

I have another convert to the darkside on landings. LOL

I have a partner with my plane and we have been flying with a new CT owner at the field.
He was taught no power, with flaps and to pull the stick back all the way back. Today he tried it as I described in the other post. Today he came in at 55 knots, no flaps, small amount of power and made a beautiful landing. He is now a convert to 0-15 flaps, some power, no flare just level it off and let it settle and then slowly push the stick forward.

My partner and I love to see the smiles on converts. As the saying goes "Out with the old in with the New".

Roger Lee,

Good job, keep sharing your knowledge and skills.

I seem to be over my bad streak, was out today test flying and doing landings in the snow.

Hey Ed,

Did you guys get some of the snow they had up north? I am sure that would be really pretty to see up there! Do you ever get snowed in? Do people clear the snow off the runway? I'm one of these guys that puts on a jacket when it gets down to 72F.

I had one of those landings today. Went out this morning for some patterns. First landing was awful - bounced lightly once, added a touch of throttle, bounced again, let it settle and almost had it right when it bounced again. I went around. I should have gone around after the first bounce, but ADS is 7000 ft, so I wanted to try and recover.

In retrospect, it was being too fast that set up the bounces. I hadn't handed but once in the last three weeks, and I was rusty on the CT. The next five were much better - not a bounce in there. I really worked at 60 kt over the threshold.

Had to go to work then and came back for a pattern and a little flying right up to twilight (I had 4 minutes to spare when I get to the hangar). Hadn't ever flown close to nighttime, and it was really cool. Landing light works well.

Doug

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

Hey Ed,

Did you guys get some of the snow they had up north? I am sure that would be really pretty to see up there! Do you ever get snowed in? Do people clear the snow off the runway? I'm one of these guys that puts on a jacket when it gets down to 72F.

We have been getting snow off and on. Mammoth is a place that gets a lot of snow, last year we got about 70' of snow. The airport is a bit lower and gets far less and my hangar is south facing and requires little shoveling. They do a certain amount of snow removal on the runway and taxiways. Braking on rollout with icy or snowy conditions can be a negative. Skis on the CT would be a lot of fun.

Looks like I will probably go to Redding to get my avionics fine tuned, are you going there as well?

Originally Posted by Doug

I had one of those landings today. Went out this morning for some patterns. First landing was awful - bounced lightly once, added a touch of throttle, bounced again, let it settle and almost had it right when it bounced again. I went around. I should have gone around after the first bounce, but ADS is 7000 ft, so I wanted to try and recover.

In retrospect, it was being too fast that set up the bounces. I hadn't handed but once in the last three weeks, and I was rusty on the CT. The next five were much better - not a bounce in there. I really worked at 60 kt over the threshold.

Had to go to work then and came back for a pattern and a little flying right up to twilight (I had 4 minutes to spare when I get to the hangar). Hadn't ever flown close to nighttime, and it was really cool. Landing light works well.

Doug

Doug,

I 'm sure that landings come and go even to high time pilots. As we build time our standards increase and we are no longer happy with landings that would have made us happy in the past.

Keep increasing your standards, be demanding of yourself and increase your skill levels. Today I worked on a couple of touch and goes using only one main wheel, this is something that I couldn't do years ago.

Mammoth has a 7000' runway as well and I do less go arounds now that I have built some time in the CT, I get a little altitude and get my nose low again and try again. Takes a lot less time than a go-around and builds skills for gusty conditions.

After fine-tuning approach speeds for 0 and 30 degree landings by myself in 40-50 degree weather I was comfortable with most every situation except really gusty x-winds. To keep from ballooning with 0 flaps I like to keep 52 kt by myself and 55 with a (light) passenger crossing the threshold.

Yesterday I took my 275lb ex-boss up with half a tank of fuel. Right at 1320lbs, 80 degrees F, light winds. Normal 55kt 0 flap approach, and when I rounded out, nothing happened. By the time I realized I wasn't getting any lift we hit the ground. No apparent damage to the gear but man was I pissed. All I can figure is I did a transition to a gentle stall 2 ft above the ground.

If you do the math I needed another 5-6 kt at the same AOA to make up for the extra weight. Instead, I had more AOA and less margin.

My ex-boss didn't think the landing was that bad and wants to go up again (he called his wife about getting a CT after we landed). I think 15 degrees might be the ticket for hot weather at max weight, since it seems to give the proper AOA at higher weights.

Bottom line, the CT seems like a brick at max wt compared to flying alone.