Thread: Student Pilot Landing Issues

Hi Guys,

I am a student pilot and first started in a PA-28 140 (8hrs) then switched to a CTSW. I am still having a really tough time getting the landings down. I have about 10 hrs in the plane and in the last week I did at least 20 landings and only 2 were totally unassisted. My instructor is telling me I am way to heavy on the controls. I feel the problem is being caused by the instructor not letting me fly the plane all the way down to the runway. He owns the plane and its new and I think he's being a little over protective. My last lesson, I had to tell him "just let me get it down" as he was calling out commands. My tendancy to over correct is because he constantly takes control just as we cross the threshold and I am fighting his inputs. If my inputs are wrong, I need to feel it. Does that make sense? BTW, glad I stubmled accross this forum. I can already see, I'm not the only one who thinks the CTSW is tough to land for beginners.

I am starting to get discouraged and don't have the option of switching instructors. When I was flying the PA140 with a different instructor, I was landing it by myself. Sure, I bounced a few and ballooned a few, but don't we all

Am I totally wrong here or do I just need more hours?

Thanks,
James

You need more hours. It took me forever to be able to land safely and with 300+ CTSW landings, I'm just starting to get comfortable solo, light, and in hot gusty winds. There are some things you can do that will help. Put grease pencil marks on the inside of the windscreen to show proper runway alignment. Practice taxiing with the nose up off the runway while following the centerline. Get your instructor to fly the plane 3 feet off the runway with just enough power to keep you flaired and then have him give you the plane.

Believe me, you are not alone on this. The CTSW is a handful for an experienced student to land. In order to do a proper landing, you need to intuitively make several different corrections a few feet from the runway. I had a terrible time getting my brain and feet wired together to do it. Maybe you are more talented than me, but *everyone* takes some amount of time.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of CTSW accidents and incidents in this country are due to landings gone bad. Your pilot has a responsibility firstly to the FAA and secondly to you and he to make sure that every landing you make is safe.

Thanks Jim. More HRS = more $$. Sport Pilot was "sold" to me as a less expensive way to fly. This definitley isn't the case with the CTSW as its harder to land than a heavier plane and requries more instruction before solo. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. I saw some other that put a mark on the windshield which said helped with the pitch attitude and think I will suggest that to my instructor.

Thx

james,

the cherokee (compared to the ctsw) is very easy to land. you can land a cherokee without using your feet and it can easily survive a hard contact from bouncing or ballooning.

the ctsw will get damaged, even a total loss from a hard non-aligned contact especially if you don't have the skills to fix marginal landing (which you don't.)

the likelyhood is that you are in fact too heavy on the controlls and you don't want to be fighting inputs close to the ground. ask the instructor to anounce that he now has control, don't figtht but follow along.

if calling out commands isn't working for you, say so, but the alternative is to allow you to get far enough from where you need to be and then call for a go around. this can be discouraging too.

the ctsw doesn't give you a lot of clues meaning the sight picture might be wrong but look ok to you at this stage.

patience grasshopper.

what flap setting are you using? have you tried 15 degrees? minimal flaps and a little power might be a way to make it simpler at first.

I agree. The light weight of LSA sometimes makes them harder to fly. Fly a 172 and a CTSW back to back and you'll see. Some LSA are rather easy to land, though (T-211 for one).

Doug

Thanks Jim. More HRS = more $$. Sport Pilot was "sold" to me as a less expensive way to fly.

Been there, done that. Paid for many $150 LSA plane+instructor hours when I could have been buying $90 152 plane+instructor hours and gotten better instruction. SLSA with new planes is more expensive than PP training in 150/152's and many LSA instructors are not nearly as good as PP instructors. You have to do what you have to do, but if I could do it over, I'd train with the local university flying club then transition to LSA.

Originally Posted by James253CT

My instructor is telling me I am way to heavy on the controls.

James,

Do you mean too heavy in pitch, ailerons, rudder, or all? Over controlling the pitch is fairly common in the CTSW, and is the primary reason the CTLS has much stiffer controls. My CTSW is sensitive enough in pitch, that I pretty much just have to think about rounding out, and I've put enough pressure on the stick. Over doing it will lead to ballooning it, which if you are not careful with, will lead to a hard landing. The gear on the CTSW is not as stout as that on the Cherokee.

Originally Posted by Jim Stewart

You have to do what you have to do, but if I could do it over, I'd train with the local university flying club then transition to LSA.

Jim,

Personally, I disagree. By learning in a 150/152/172 or equivalent Piper, you are actually not learning how to fly as well. As mentioned by Ed, those are very easy to land, and don't require much skill, especially on the rudder. Most of the landing accidents were made by those who transitioned from those aircraft, and tried to land the CTSW the same way they did the Cessna or Piper. Tail wheel pilots transition to a CT easier, as they have already acquired the rudder skills. Learning in a 152 will cause you to have to break the bad habits you unknowingly learned, in order to transition to a CT. Learning in a CT will make you a better pilot forever.

Your point is well taken Roger and I do agree. My problem was with a specific instructor that took thousands of dollars and didn't have the skills to teach a good landing, nevermind a crosswind landing. I think the ideal situation would be private pilot knowledge followed by primary instruction in a Sportstar and advanced training in a CT, all with a competent instructor. The trouble is finding such instruction.

Originally Posted by Jim Stewart

Your point is well taken Roger and I do agree. My problem was with a specific instructor that took thousands of dollars and didn't have the skills to teach a good landing, nevermind a crosswind landing. I think the ideal situation would be private pilot knowledge followed by primary instruction in a Sportstar and advanced training in a CT, all with a competent instructor. The trouble is finding such instruction.

I really appreciate all this feedback. Makes me feel a whole lot better! My instructor has 35 yrs experience and about 30 CFI for MEL. I think I'm his first Sport Pilot student in the CT as this is a new airplane (he bought it) for the FBO. He did sell me on the CTSW because of promised lower total cost to get to my final goal vs the PA140. He's a good instructor, I just don't think he was honest about the training hours involved or better yet, not aware himself.

Originally Posted by No Regrets

Originally Posted by James253CT

My instructor is telling me I am way to heavy on the controls.

James,

Do you mean too heavy in pitch, ailerons, rudder, or all? .

He says I'm over correcting way to much with rudder and ailerons. Ailerons is prob biggest prob for me. Actually, first was pitch attitude but I got that pretty much down now after learning how to trim out the plane correctly.

James