Thread: Airspeed at Rotation during takeoff ?

Can anyone confirm what the recommended airspeed is for rotation during takeoff with 0 flaps. The closest we can find in the CT handbook is 42 knots with 15 flaps.

Thanks,
Robin
Lady Flyer having fun in the Sun in California

Hi Robin,


I don't start to rotate until 50 at 15 flaps and 60 with zero flaps. If you lost an engine at low altitude at zero flaps and only 50, you would be in trouble. I prefer a good solid flight platform at takeoff which gives me a good recovery if something happens. Yes you can takeoff at lower speeds and climb like a screaming ape, but why set yourself up. You should be able to have an easy recovery into a glide if the engine quits 50' off the ground.

P.S.
From this point on I'm just exercising my jaw.
Just my opinion.

There are lots of people out there that have demonstrated that low speed climbs work when the engine is running then when the engine quits or coughs hard they go to the airplane cemetery. Someone on this forum just had a little scare when the engine coughed hard on takeoff. Thank God it didn't quit. He did the right thing and had a good landing.
It is still beyond me to figure out why pilots like to come in hanging on stall or takeoff hanging on stall. Number 1 cause of loss of control and cause of damage. A little extra speed might take you down the runway another 50'-100', but at least you get to taxi back to the hanger instead of walking back.
There is nothing wrong with zero flaps landings and takeoffs, just carry some speed or power. If you are flying with two people then I like 3000rpm zero flaps for landings in windy conditions. The people who have used this for a while seem to really like this combination. Gives really good control and makes the aircraft feel solid. It also lets the nose wheel stay up just slightly so you always land on the mains and never a three point landing of which the nose wheel was not meant for. People on this forum that know me, know that I use 2800rpm for all flaps (15, 30 and 40). The reason people have had some landing issues with the CT is loss of low speed/power control. If you keep a little throttle in that doesn't happen, the nose keeps up a little so you land on the mains. So what if you land 50'-100' longer. Remember the stick controls speed, not the throttle. Are you not trying to have as close to 100% nice landings on the normal long runways that we usually use. Save the no power full stalls for short field landings. The short field landings are a very tiny percentage, if any, of the normal everyday landings of which you are trying to be gentle on the plane. The takeoffs and landings are the hardest on the aircraft. Be nice to your baby and it will take care of you.

Ok now I'm done.

tumbleweed,

in calm and gentle winds i apply a little back pressure at 30 knots. i'm tying to get weight off of the nose wheel at this point. once i feel that my nose wheel is light and probably airborne i maintain that attitude and allow the ctsw to fly off the runway without rotating further. i usually use 15 degrees and don't even know the speed at which i start flying in this type of take off. once i'm fling i reduce the back pressure to allow the nose to fall a little and accelerate a bit before a positive rate of climb develops at a fairly flat attitude.

in gusty or croswind conditions i will allow the nose wheel to remain in contact for another 10 knots. this allows for a very positvie departure from the runway, kinda elevator like and eliminates the tendency to drag/side load your gear as you take off gradually.

one of the beauties of flying the ctsw is that a rotation speed isn't an issue on a normal take off, center your trim, get the weight off at 30kts and allow it fly when it's ready.

I know that my instructor and I had a hard time doing a classic soft field takeoff in the CT. Getting the plane to lift off then fly level in ground effect is not something that's in the CT's nature

At 15 degrees the CT flies itself off the runway at around 40kts.

With 0 degrees you need to rotate around 45. Pull back slightly till the nose is off and then soon the CT will fly and start climbing.

From my experience.

Cheers,

Jos

I have been with people that let the CT rotate out at about 40-45 and a single person flight or a light person is not as big an issue. Sometimes it's not a problem, but when two up, well a little extra speed is safety. I agree that the plane wants to try to be airborne at around 40, but who's in control? Twice people almost put us in the ground from stalling with wind changes taking off at those speeds. It will do it, but a quick change can put that really close to stall. That's closer than I want to be. If your 5-10 feet off the ground at those speeds your going to have a bent plane if the engine quits on you. It was a little unnerving. You wouldn't come in to land at 40 and most won't do it at 45, why lift it off the ground at 40-45. I can approach and land at 45knots and 40 flaps if need be, but there is no room for mistakes at the bottom. I don't understand why everyone wants to be so close to the edge when 5-10 knots gives a great safety cushion. With the extra 5-10 knots I would bet most of the CT accidents would not have happened since most were stall related. If you been in a couple of accidents or ever flew ultralights in the early days when engines quit more often it gives you a different perspective of how quickly things can get out of control for things you have done hundreds of times, but this one time something changed.

Been there done that and have a better appreciation for the extra 5-10 mph.

Robin,

I don't see where the book is very clear on this and it may be a little different depending where you look. The Flight Training Supplement that came with my 2007 says lift off at 40 knots, 15 degrees flap at 1320 lbs. That's different from the 42 knots you mentioned. On the same page it also says the minimum speed at zero flaps is 42 knots which somewhat confirms your observation.

In the Feb. 8, 2008 Aircraft Operating Instructions it says to rotate at 44 knots with flaps 15 for a short field departure. It further says the initial climb at 1320 lbs for a normal take off is 51 knots at flaps 15. Note that this section of the book actually says to do this at 42 knots which is an error in the printing. The 42 knot figure is meant for 472.5 kg (about 1040 lbs.). Anyway, 51 knots is a little slow for "normal" and I would reserve that speed for obstacle clearance when you really need it.

As you can see, everyone has their preferences and techniques that work for them. For me, I use flaps 15 for take off and don't pay much attention to the airspeed until I break ground. Then, unless I need the obstacle clearance speed, I accelerate to about 62 knots (top of the white) and hold it there (I am looking for attitude here with the indicator as a reference) with flaps 15 until I get about 500 AGL then I retract the flaps and accelerate to a climb speed that gives me good forward visibility and engine cooling. The reason I keep the settings I do until 500 AGL is that basically keeps me set up for about the right glide speed and flap setting should the engine quit. If you need to clean up faster for more speed due to someone taking off behind you, you certainly can.

Anyhow, that's my take off preference and is what I am most comfortable with in "normal" conditions. It might not be right for you or anyone else.

I normally use 15 degrees of flaps and start pulling back on the stick when the airspeed gets into the white arc.

I have learned, (the hard way) to use 0 flaps and build more speed in windy conditions before rotation. A side blast of wind at a slow rotation speed can produce a real interesting ride, I spooked my wife pretty good one day doing just that

Hi John,

Hope you had a nice trip home. I was home Saturday at 2000 hrs. The back is better. I'm not walking like an ape anymore.

Here, here for the extra 5-10 over 40 knots. Short field 44 and normal 51. I also rotate at about the 50 and get to 60-65 for my climb out and don't go to zero flaps until the 500-800 ft. mark depending on my terrain and density altitude to be set up for a good glide.

it might be worth mentioning that our nose gear is delicate. this is my motivation in getting the nose light at a slow speed and taking off from there. kindness to my nose gear is a big reason why i like full stall landings as well.

when directional control becomes more of an issue ( cross wind and or gusty wind or even downwind operations ) i rely more on my nose wheel steering and therefore have the nosewheel in contact at higher speeds.

the ctsw is a "pitch attitude" airplane. it is easy to get proficient on landings and take offs with no reference to indicated airspeed. this is a good skill to have in case of a failure or obviously incorrect air speed readings.

i have 3 distinct "gates" that i use for departures. in calm or good conditions all 3 begin with back pressure at 30kts and allowing the ct to fly from that pitch attitude. as soon as my mains clear i release the back pressure and allow my nose to fall to a flatter/safer attitude. then;

gate 1) take off flaps and 58kts ias till landing options open up - normal take off

gate 2) take off flaps and ~45kts ias till i get the altitude i'm looking for. this configuration can give you a very steep angle of climb but requires dilligence as you are more exposed in case of an engine out or stall from wind sheer.

gate 3) min flaps and achieve max speed for flap setting as in greater than 100kts indicated airspeed while remaining within 10' of the runway and then pull back to a steep climb until speeds decay and then push over for level flight or normal climb.

a little wind sheer can cause my ias to wonder quite a bit, knowing safe pitch/power combinations can eliminate chasing airspeed.

note: even if you are trimmed for best glide if you loose power actively ( hopefully instinctually ) push forward. planes seek the speed they are trimmed for but the ctsw can loose energy very quickly. there is a big difference in pitch attitude in a full power climb and a power off glide. we all should know what a power off approach attitude looks like, if the engine quits when climbing from the runway this is your target, if you push forward to this attitude quickly your speed won't decay and you won't have to get your nose excessively low in order to accelerate.