Thread: CTLS upside-down on takeoff from Ft. Myers, FL on 2/7/2010

Thankfully, pilot was uninjured. Aircraft was N772CT registered to Paragon Flight Training.

http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=11948118

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=72410

FAA incident report shows "WEATHER: 320@9KT VIS10 CLR 16/07 A2992" but the TV reporter said other pilots said the winds were gusty. Also pointed out that no fuel leaked, which is comforting.

Runways at KFMY are 5/23 and 13/31.


Anybody know what happened?

Can't say what happened here but I had a situation a week ago where I was landing in an airport that was small and had buildings close in on each side of the runway. There was a strong X-wind, there was a gap between some buldings just at the spot where I was touching down and I was at 30 degrees of flap in order to set down in the restricted space. The X-wind came thru the gap and picked up my wing and blew me off the runway before touching down. I put in full aileron but was still being blow off the runway. Just when I was getting ready to go to full power and abort, I went past the gap, the X-wind ceased and I had enough runway to set down. I don't have to tell anyone here that our CT's will get away from us very quickly if the right gust comes along.

Strong X-winds with 30 flaps are tricky. You can run out of aileron really quick. I know its a tough choice when your landing on a short runway with a crosswind, but lower flap settings improve the crosswind capability especially in the ability to stop drifting. There is only a few knots difference in stall speed and approach speed between 15 and 30 flap, plus with the additional drag of the side slip manuever you can still land pretty short with 15. If you have plenty of runway then 0 flaps works real well up to and beyond the 16kt limit.

Eric Swisher
Copper City Aviation Services

I'm with Eric on not using a lot of flaps with strong cross winds. For me anything over 10 mph is on my be careful list.
You can land in 300m or 1000 ft. with zero flaps which is the far better choice for stronger winds. I know it can be done because I have done it quite a few times. I remember when our CT friends in the UK challenged me to a 300m strip landing and to do it under power. I use 2800 rpm. You control the speed with the stick so landing with zero flaps with power then brakes isn't a problem provided you don't land long and leave a lot of runway behind you. Anytime its over 10 mph cross wind I land at zero flaps. You may land a hundred times at 30 in crosswinds, but it only takes once to find out like the the pilot in Florida. I feel bad for anyone that has been there. Same thing for take offs with me. Zero flap take off in strong cross winds. You just have better control and more of that control at zero with some prop wash over your control surface. I never use idle power with crosswinds and never get any where close to a stall landing with crosswinds. The controls at 30 and idle get too mushy and like Eric pointed out you give up some of your control the more flaps you use. At a full stall landing with a lot of flaps it is harder to get the prop back to speed, flying speed and control surface help if you get in trouble. If I get in trouble my prop is already turning up and my controls are solid and I have some speed left over to help me out. I would rather give up my speed with the brakes on the ground in a bad wind than to give the wind a free shot at me and not enough power, speed or control to save my plane.

I just prefer never to use 30 or 40 degrees of flaps.

I usually don't use them as my normal everyday settings. I do practice with 30 &40 and use them for really short runways, but that's about all. I think some of these CFI's that force there pilots to use these settings (30-35 flaps) as their normal landing isn't a good thing to do. There are CFI's out there with the CT that only teach 30 and full stall for normal landings. I think this is setting some poor pilot up for failure when the right circumstances exists. I think this is the wrong message to send. All different flap and power settings should be taught and mastered so they are all in your bag of tricks and used in the correct situation.

You guys are right about using flaps in x-winds. Based on my experience the other day, I suspect that this could have been a factor in the upset at Ft. Meyers. I learned from my 35 flap x-wind landing but I would have prefered to have found out about loosing aileron control from this thread than actually going thru it. When you run out of spit with aileron control, it isn't a comfortable situation. Roger I've talked to you about the use of higher flap settings and know that you're not a big fan of doing this and you cautioned me not to do it in x-winds. I have no problem using 0 or 15 flaps for landing but I have been experimenting with different flaps to understand how the CT responds. Actually, I have made a lot of short grass field landings with 35 flaps and actually like getting the nose down and playing with the pitch to hold 50 kts and play with the power if I need to extend the landing to arrive at the right spot to let the plane down. It sure gives one a good view of the runway. No arguement that 0 or 15 flaps combined with carrying a little power is best for x-winds.

I agree with comments about flaps and cross winds...landings
but this 'accident' was on takeoff
I'm trying to figure how that could happen

Could have become squirrely on roll out or wind under a wing as he was becoming light on the wheels or stalled it by lifting off too soon. (departure stall) I only lift off at 50 knts. I see some come off right at 38-40 knts. The plane wants to start to fly there, but it's to close to stall for me. I was with a guy once in a CT like that in light winds thought we were going to stall at 25 ft. in the air. A little scary. That old saying we all learned when we were students; speed and altitude is usually your friend.

the accident happened on take off and yet this thread has creeped to a full flaps vs min flaps for (crosswind) landings.

there seems to be a consensus developing here, over time, that minimal flaps are easier for training, easier for normal landings, and easier for crosswind landings. aileron control authority has been added to the argument.

certainly i minimize flaps for landings when conditions are beyond my level to do otherwise but for normal landings including normal crosswind landings with a gust factor in continue to favor 30degrees. 15 or zero is easier but if 30 is normal it becomes pretty easy too.

kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed and this, traditionally in aviation has been the motivation to make full flap landings normal landings. upon a crash landing the flap setting could mean the difference between walking away or not.

it is argued that the stall speeds are barely different but we find that we do land at meaningfully slower speeds with more flaps.