Thread: CTLS upside-down on takeoff from Ft. Myers, FL on 2/7/2010

Hi Ed,

Stall is lower at 40 verses zero and with 30-40 flaps you have a less less control in a major event because of the control system setup. Also with the lower stall a little wind could be the determining factor to get a wing still in the air and cause you to swerve off the runway or even clip a runway light. Zero and 15 flaps in marginal conditions takes less experience than 30-40 flaps in a windy condition. You have that experience, not all do. Your normal conditions are usually swirling winds where others only have that on occasions. Your normal conditions are our challenging conditions hence we struggle and certainly don't need the added difficulty of extra flaps. I think sometimes people with a lot of experience don't understand why everybody can't do it like them. Go back to your first 1-3 months with the CT verses now and then look back even farther at your light aircraft experience verses others from heavy aircraft. I think if you look at it in those terms you could see where the average CT owner may have a slight disadvantage over your experience.

p.s.
This is a compliment for you.

p.s.s.
You better be at Columbia. haven't seen you and Erin for a while.

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...Stall is lower at 40 verses zero and with 30-40 flaps you have a less less control in a major event because of the control system setup.

hey roger, i don't follow what you are saying in the above quote. perhaps you are saying that at some point (30 and 40) the flaperons should stop drooping and begin to reflex for more aileron authority? for me the limiting factor is rudder and the ailerons are always there for me, granted they are mushier when slow.

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

... with the lower stall a little wind could be the determining factor to get a wing still in the air and cause you to swerve off the runway or even clip a runway light.

this sounds backwards unless the "little wind" had tail wind component vs headwind. the slower (or faster) stall by itself isn't the issue, the issue would be how much margin you have above stall, like 1.3 x Vs(o). swerving off the runway (while still in the air) is a loss of directional control (failure to counter drift) or on the ground (it would be a failure to maintain directional control with the rudder and or nose gear steering and or a failure to keep crosswind correction in during rollout.)

Originally Posted by Roger Lee

...
Zero and 15 flaps in marginal conditions takes less experience than 30-40 flaps in a windy condition. You have that experience, not all do. Your normal conditions are usually swirling winds where others only have that on occasions. Your normal conditions are our challenging conditions hence we struggle and certainly don't need the added difficulty of extra flaps. I think sometimes people with a lot of experience don't understand why everybody can't do it like them. Go back to your first 1-3 months with the CT verses now and then look back even farther at your light aircraft experience verses others from heavy aircraft. I think if you look at it in those terms you could see where the average CT owner may have a slight disadvantage over your experience.

p.s.
This is a compliment for you.

p.s.s.
You better be at Columbia. haven't seen you and Erin for a while.

i am not trying to win this argument but i am trying to present the other side. experience is sometimes forced upon you but if it is not you can seek it out. everyone has a crosswind runway at home or nearby. how often do you land with a 10k crosswind vs into the wind on the active?

conditions in mammoth are not normally difficult but it does happen a lot in the spring and even summer.

columbia is so close that we should make it even if we are too broke.

Originally Posted by runtoeat

Can't say what happened here but I had a situation a week ago where I was landing in an airport that was small and had buildings close in on each side of the runway. There was a strong X-wind, there was a gap between some buldings just at the spot where I was touching down and I was at 30 degrees of flap in order to set down in the restricted space. The X-wind came thru the gap and picked up my wing and blew me off the runway before touching down. I put in full aileron but was still being blow off the runway. Just when I was getting ready to go to full power and abort, I went past the gap, the X-wind ceased and I had enough runway to set down. I don't have to tell anyone here that our CT's will get away from us very quickly if the right gust comes along.

The normal procedure for recovery when near stall is to use rudder, rather than aileron. Its very risky to attempt to use aileron to correct for a dropped wing when near a stall. I know its very hard to think about that when you are in the moment when that gust hits.